#2 - 2019 Cabernet Sauvignon Black Label, Wynns Coonawarra Estate with Sue Hodder

Sue Hodder, chief winemaker at Wynns Coonawarra Estate, explains the real deal with Terra Rossa soil, gives her views on wine's eucalyptus character and reveals her insightful approach to tannin management.

Chapters

• 0:00 Intro
• 0:21 Terra Rossa soils
• 9:45 Eucalyptus aromas
• 13:54 Tannins management
• 24:36 Outro

Transcript

Nelson - Hello and welcome to One Bottle Three Questions with myself Nelson Pari, and Mike Best, Master of Wine. Today we're drinking the 2019 Wynns Cabernet Sauvignon Black Label with Sue Hodder. Let's start right away with the first question. To you, Mike. 

Mike - Thank you Nelson and good morning, good evening Sue. Sue is in Australia and we are both in the UK. Sue Hodder is chief winemaker at Wynns and has been for a long time, an absolute expert in Cabernet Sauvignon and Coonawarra. So Sue, the first question would be, someone thinks about Cunawara, they are going to imagine in their minds that the Terra Rossa soil, this famous soil that makes Coonwarra stand out. So Black Labels planted on the famous Terra Rossa soil Coonawarra is this small island of vines really relative to a large and sparsely inhabited part of South Australia. So why are Terra Rossa soil so important and what makes them unique? There are other parts of Coonawarra on clay soil, so how are those different? That's the first question we'd like to explore with you. 

Sue - Yes. Hi, Nelson and hi, Mike. The Terra Rossa soil is this amazing soil for the growing of incredible Cabernet grapes. But of course, like any wine region of the world, it's in combination with the climate to give it the terroir. Terra Rossa soil is a red clay loam over limestone. It's an ancient seabed. It's limestone, of course. In this region, the Limestone Coast, there are a series of these coastlines, ancient coastlines between here and the current coast, beautiful beach. Robe and Port MacDonald. It's a roaded limestone that has become weathered and red, but it's the physical properties of the soil which combine with this cooler climate to give it the usually optimal conditions for the growing of good age-worthy yet medium-bodied Cabernet. The Terra Rossa soils is 21 kilometres long and a couple of kilometres wide, although there are little islands outside that. And there is some variation within the Terra Rossa soil. And for example, with our Black Label Cabernet, we make selections from about 40 different parcels on different vineyards within the Terra Rossa soil, and they all have their own characteristics and flavours and styles. We've just finished our 2024 vintage, which was a really high quality one and we're very excited about that. And eventually we'll be lining up all these different parcels of wines we've picked over the last six weeks or so. And despite all being Cabernet and all being on Terra Rossa soil, they are quite different. All very Wynns-like in their nature. medium-bodied red cherry character with hints of mint, but certainly all expressive of their own individual vineyards within this lovely soil. Now, we do wonder about what it is that is perfect for the growing of the Cabernet vines for the Black Label in this good soil. Generally, it just relates to the drainage. As I said, it was this red clay loam. over the limestone and it can vary in depth from a couple of inches to a couple of meters. That's very interesting because of course all of that and the soil available to the vine is going to influence how it grows and ultimately how the grapes taste. So that's important. But what happens is in this quite flat region we get predominantly winter rainfall. and this soil profile fills up with moisture. And in spring, we get the bud burst and fruit set. And then as we move towards our Christmas here in the Southern Hemisphere, and it warms up, the soil dries out and it's like a controlled stress factor. Then we get to veraison or color change and acid depletion and the tannins have all been formed. in February and by that stage the soil is starting to be quite dry and many of our vineyards have supplementary drip irrigation on them so that we don't stress the vine too much and we can get good conditions for veraison. But a number of our vineyards are dry grown and they're very interesting and produce different characteristics of course. So really It all works together in the environment, the soil, the drainage, the weather, the rainfall, the temperatures, but the Terra Rossa certainly provides a beautiful canvas for this amazing fruit. 

Mike - How was it discovered? I think is a sort of interesting part of this question because if you stand and look, I don't think you can necessarily see any sort of feature that makes it stand out from the surrounding. You have to look under the surface. So how was it first discovered? 

Sue - Coonawarra at face value or driving by is quite flat. In fact, there are subtle ridges and changes in elevation. And of course, they make a difference to the temperature of the airflow and the soil depth and all the other characteristics that we need for growing good grapes. And increasingly, as we seek to understand the differences between the Terra Rossa soil vineyards, we're learning so much. A lot of this can be about the characteristics of the limestone. It can be quite soft and crumbly in parts, but then other parts of the region, this hard calcrete layer that is impenetrable to roots. And then one vineyard that we really love that makes a significant contribution to the Black Label Cabernet is one we call Alex 88, just in front of the Gables Winery here, and that has this manganese black mottling in the soil profile. Now we have to understand that in more detail and what that means for fruit profile because we love that vineyard so it's obviously a positive attribute. So again it's just subtle differences within a framework that at face value can look quite narrow but when you live and work here and are making the wines you can really see that there are very fine and subtle differences. 

Mike - Is it possible to generalise Cabernet grown on Terra Rossa versus black brown clay that you also have in Coonawarra? 

Sue - Yes, within Coonawarra there are different soil types. Wynns Coonwarra estate is very proud to have the largest part of the pure Terra Rossa soil. However, there are some heavier clay soils to the west. They've been less weathered and eroded. They have more moisture holding capacity, more clay, and therefore they hold the water longer in winter and spring. The vine is quite different, probably more vigorous. May take a little longer to ripen, but the good wines are made on the black soil, but they're quite different. Then further to the east is the influence of slightly sandier soil, which is better drained. and those vines might ripen earlier. 

Mike - Is there a different stylistic profile between the wines as well, or is it sort of too hard to generalize about that? 

Sue - There certainly is different flavours and style noted between the different soil types. Yes, the black soil would be wines that are leafier, usually higher in alcohol. They're picked because they need to be left on the vine longer for tannin ripeness. Vines on the eastern side can be mintier. and they have a lovely lightness to them too. And the Terra Rossa soil vines give us this very nice red cherry character with brightness in the best vintages. 

Nelson - When we're talking about Terra Rossa soils, we've been talking about clay, limestone, and generally when we think about Bordeaux, we think about these soils in correlation with Merlot or Cabernet Franc. So sometimes it might be probably for some listeners out there, the first time they ever hear about Cabernet being grown over these types of soils. Are there any strong disadvantages to planting in Terra Rossa soils Cabernet Sauvignon? 

Sue - I don't believe so, but of course we have a different terroir slightly to Bordeaux, although there are many similarities, but a lot of that is due to the differences in the spread of rainfall through the season. We're winter dominant rainfall here and in Bordeaux they get a lot more summer and spring rainfall. 

Nelson - So, Sue, when we talk about Coonawarra Cabernet, it's impossible not to mention the herbal aromas of eucalyptus and mint. In the black label, which is without any doubt a trademark wine of the region, these notes are not really in your face and they're actually quite subtle and really refined. Where does this herbal character come from in general and how do you guys control it? 

Sue - Cabernet is a grape variety that does express some of these mintier and at times herbal fresh notes. But like anything else, any other grape variety or anything that we drink, it must be as part of the complex and interesting nose or aroma of the wine. Now, some of the eucalyptus character that people talk about can be ascribed to gum trees. around vineyards. Now Wynns Coonawarra Estate, we don't really have gum trees around our vineyards. One of our lovely old vineyards in the southern part of the Terra Rossa strip does have a few and we made that into a single vineyard in 2021. But in general we don't have trees in our vineyards and we might see less of this cineole or eucalypt character in our wines. Some of our neighbours have more of that and that's part of their terroir. style too. But these minty characters are very interesting in the way they express because of course sage and rosemary and many other of the herbs have these cineoles in them too and they give a lovely freshness to the variety in combination with the red berries and cherries and bay leaves and other aromas and a little bit of nice oak and spice and they give it a good lift. So I think those minty notes are all part of the variety and they vary from vineyard to vineyard and producer to producer. But interestingly, we have our wines measured for the cineoles, 1-8 cineole, because we're interested in that. And we usually find they're almost zero. And there are a couple of very famous wines in Australia that have quite elevated levels of these compounds. And they're interesting too, but not generally ours. 

Mike - Has that changed over time with regards to cineole concentration in the wine and eucalyptus character or has it always been that way for you? 

Sue - So we're just about to release our 67th vintage of the Black Label Cabernet. So we're, and in a couple of years, we'll be lining up the 70 vintages of the wine, which will be something else. We did have the whole set when we did the 60 year tasting of the Black Label, we had the whole set. analysed at the Australian Wine Research Institute, an incredible research institution based in Adelaide as you know. We didn't see a lot of variation quite frankly in those levels, but there were some of course. And these days with different ways of picking selective harvesters and things, you can really be very precise with all that. 

Nelson - Were gum trees a concern when planting vineyards and the correlation between those trees and the cineole monoterpene compound was known even back in the day? 

Sue - No, it probably wasn't acknowledged as being a direct effect if you talk about a century ago or... and these days you're not allowed to push over the big trees and that's good and about time. These majestic trees that were here first. And they add to the character of the vineyard and the fruit and I think it was perhaps a nice coincidence. 

Mike - So the third question that I'm probably most excited to ask you about Sue is because you're a, well, started off as a viticulturist, but you're a chief winemaker at Wynns. And I wanted to ask you about tannins management. So I think that Cabernet Sauvignon is clearly a classically full-bodied structured wine. And I think that the decisions that winemakers make are often seen as an important part of the style, but they aid the wines in their ageing ability and the character. So I really want to get your insights into what your philosophy is with extracting and managing tannins. How you approach that in Black Label from what you do in the vineyard to what you do with the maturation of the wine would be, I think, a really fascinating run through. 

Sue - Yes. And when you're responsible for making a heritage label like Wynns Black Label Cabernet Sauvignon it’s important we refer to our back catalogue and old vintages. And for me, the great inspiration came from tasting the wines of the 1960s when we did our initially 50 years of Wynns Black Label Cabernet and that was back in 2004. I was just blown away by these wines from the 60s that were medium bodied, had fine tannin, they were not big and heavy and alcoholic or oaky and they had a very nice fine tannin profile and it really inspired us to be confident about making these medium-bodied styles because the reality was in the 90s there was a greater appeal for or reward for bigger styles of wine and they were the ones that were being scored well and collected and rated and we know that they're not necessarily the wines that age most gracefully or show the fruit to its true expression. And I'm delighted that there's now a greater interest in medium-bodied cabernet like our Black Label that can be paired with modern food or modern cuisines and doesn't need to be in the cellar for years. And it has fine tannin. You can drink it young and there's no regret or embarrassment about all that. And you can drink it young, And a lot of that has to do with the tannins. And the tannins that we are now seeking in the wines and all these parcels that I spoke to you about that we get from little different vineyards and pickings and treatments in the Terra Rossa soil. One of the first selection criteria, if you like, is that they have good, fine, supple tannins. And if you get that bit right, 90% of the rest will follow, the flavours, the aromas and the balance and generally the alcohol. Now of course that's an oversimplification of how it all comes together but it's a good rule of thumb. So I'm so fortunate to work with these incredible viticulturists here at Wynns, starting with Alan Jenkins who's recently retired and he really had to get in and out. large-scale way rejuvenate our old vineyards in the heart of the Terra Rossa soil. That was a massive undertaking and well documented, but he was well across having to employ, to improve, I should say, soil health and be more judicious about our water management and the way that we respected these old Cabernet vines and the selections that we were making for the future. As soon as he started doing that, we could see an improvement in the brightness of the wines and largely in the tannins. At first, it might have surprised a few people and said, oh, well, look, they look light or maybe not. You could drink them now, how are they going to age? But we knew because we had tasted the wines from the 60s that had aged so well that they would. different researchers and the local Coonawarra vignerons. We work closely as a community here and we can understand the tannins that we have in our vineyards. Now furthermore the fermenters that we have now give us a lot more scope and more choices. Oak has come a long way and the barrel offering that we have nowadays is just incredible. I think winemakers in this type of chat, Mike and Nelson, are reluctant to talk about oak, but it's so important and the kudos to the cooperages in Bordeaux, in our case, or the rest of France, and all the work and research and selection, quality control that they've done, because the oak that we can buy now is incredible and so many different choices and far better quality than when I first started in the 90s. It's important that the trials are done on your own wines because sometimes the representatives from the Tonelleries arrive and they say, oh, we think you should use this because Chateau Latour or Opus One or somebody is using these barrels and therefore we can recommend them. But we have a different wine and we need to do the trials in detail. And my colleague, Wynns Sarah Pigeon, she's done such a great and detailed job on all these oak trials over many years and refining the cooperages that we work with. And of course, that has ultimately has a positive effect on the tannin profile of our wines. And it's been really important and made a profound improvement. 

Nelson - Which coopers are you using the most and what are the differences when it comes down to tannin profiles? 

Sue - So Nelson, these days if a cooperage arrives at the winery they've generally got everything. It's like a wine shop has everything and they've just got it all. The days of him being a Bordeaux cooperage and this lady being a Burgundy cooperage are... they don't seem to exist although there are exceptions to that of course. So we generally have and the variations in the treatments and the types of barrels that you can get is incredible. You can get from different forests and some cooperages like to grade by the forest and others like to offer the premium barrels by grain size or grain measure, or how they've seasoned them 24, 36 months where they've seasoned them, how they bent for the barrel, water bent versus fire bent, then toasted versus long, medium, short, special house toasts. So many variations. It's a very complex matrix of oak that you can consider. your wine from a cooperage. So we have a couple that we like and they are Quintessence and Taransaud and they are quite different but we like them but we also work with Sourie and a couple of others. 

Nelson - And the ultimate goal from the blending of these different barrique types is also to get this sort of silky tannins I get. 

Sue - Yes it is. Oak is very important and we don't use a high percentage of new oak, but the time in the barrel with the oxygen ingress through the oak is absolutely paramount to the making of quality wine. And we like to have oak that supports the fruit but doesn't dominate it. And probably the most exciting day I have every year, one of, is when we do the barrel tasting, barrel trial tasting that Sarah lines it up. So she's put one wine in about 20 or 30 different types of barrel from the different coopers and it's incredible what different barrels can do to change the shape and character of a wine. And you can imagine that we've made deep quality control selections, there are none that we're just pushing back. because they're stringy or green or sappy. These are all good quality barrels that are suitable to our wine, but they can really change a wine in a profound way. So it's really important to do those tastings regularly and have a clear idea of what we're trying to achieve with this important Australian Cabernet for ageing and current drinking.

Mike - I think it's remarkable really. And I think the way that describing as a medium body Cabernet Sauvignon. In some ways it's quite simplistic but it's also really spot on. You might think there are lots of medium bodied Cabernet Sauvignon's that all taste like this but this sense of elegance which is here and it's important I think for people who aren't so familiar with Coonawarra to appreciate that is a style that works fantastically well. Sort of medium bodied, elegant with fine precise tannins. Yeah, this is... not a stereotypical New World fruit bomb in any way. So it's been really interesting to get that appreciation of how you build that tannin profile, which is so important to this wine now and for its obviously ability to age for a long time. So thanks for that Sue. 

Sue - Thank you. I need a better term than a medium bodied Cabernet. So if you can make any suggestions, I'm here to hear them. 

Nelson - No, but actually it fits quite well because also, I mean, is around 13.5 pretty much every year. So it's unusual as well. 

Sue - Yes, and if all the fruit ripens at moderate sugar level with perfectly formed tannin and a good intensity of flavour, we're very happy. 

Nelson - So the three questions today were about Terra Rossa soils, herbal aromas in Coonawarra and tannin's extraction. Thank you so much for listening and hopefully you get a chance to drink the iconic Cabernet Sauvignon Black Label from Wynns really soon. Sue, thank you so much for being with us today. 

Mike - Thank you, Sue. 

Sue - Thank you, Nelson. Thank you, Mike. It's been an absolute pleasure.