One Bottle Three Questions - A Wine Podcast
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One Bottle Three Questions - A Wine Podcast
#8 - 2017 Finca Piedra Infinita Paraje Altamira Supercal, Zuccardi with Sebastián Zuccardi
Sebastián Zuccardi is a winemaker whose influence extends beyond his own wines and his family's projects. He has adapted and revolutionised both ideas around Malbec and the Uco Valley.We discussed different areas and soils of the Uco Valley, how it is possible to make a 100 point wine without oak and explored how Finca Piedra Infinita Supercal represents both the changing face of and the future of Malbec.
Nelson - Hello and welcome, this is One Bottle Three Questions with me, Nelson Pari and Mike Best, Master of Wine. Today we're drinking 2017 Finca Piedra Infinita Paraje Altamira Supercal by Zuccardi with Sebastian Zuccardi. Mike, let's start with the first question right away.
Mike - Supercal is one of the parcel wines of Zuccardi, a specific block, just under one hectare, located in Uco Valley in Mendoza. We're recording this podcast in the UK and many of the listeners will be British, although hopefully from around the world as well. So though people know Mendoza from the books and of course they know the wines, many people might not have been there as often as they've been to European wine regions. Could you give us a sense for us, for the listeners, Sebastian, of how diverse this wine region is. There's a sense, wrongly, that people think Malbec is homogenous in style, but I'd really like for you to tell us a bit more about the diversity of Mendoza, of the Uco Valley, and about this specific parcel, this specific vineyard.
Sebastian - The Uco Valley is a region in Mendoza, and it's the area that is closest to the mountain in Mendoza. So you have to think that Argentina is divided in different regions, Mendoza inside is divided in different regions and one of these regions is the Uco Valley. So we are going to do focus in the Uco Valley. If I have to give you an explanation about the Uco Valley, the first thing that I will tell you is that we make mountain wines. That the Andes Mountains create unique conditions in the Uco Valley. This influence of the mountain, in my view, through five things, the landscape, the climate conditions, the water that we used to irrigate that come from the snow melt, the soils, and we are mountain people. Everything that happened in our mind in this area is in relationship with the mountain. I love to explain that when you live here and you wake up in the morning, before you open the eyes, you know exactly where is the Andes mountain. But going to the important influence thing, first climate conditions, we live in a desert and we cultivate in maybe one of the most continental wine areas around the world. Because we have no any ocean influence, we are very far from the Atlantic, 1,000 kilometers, and we are very close to the Pacific, but we have the Andes in the middle that stop any influence. So when you compare Chile and Argentina, we are very close, but we are very different because in one side you have ocean influence and in our side, no any ocean influence. So we live in a desert, but when you think in a desert, in general, you think in a place that could be warm and with sandy soils, but we live in a high altitude desert. So the climate conditions are quite unique because it's a cold temperature desert, especially in the Uco Valley when you are going up in altitude. And in general, when you think in cold areas, you're thinking cloudy and wet, but because we have no any ocean influence, we have more than 300 days. with a very pure sunlight. So the conditions, the climate conditions are quite unique because we can cultivate, especially in the highest part of the Uco Valley, in really cold climate conditions in terms of the average of temperature, but with a very pure sunlight. And when we go to talk about the soils, all the origin of the materials where we are cultivating was the Andes mountain. And the Andes mountain has a very diverse origin, geologic origin. So all the soils where we are cultivating are alluvial soils. What means this? That millions of years ago we have the glaciers in the mountain, then the earth heated, all these glaciers melt and the water moved from the Andes mountain to our flat areas. This means that all the alluvial soils are the same? No. Alluvial is only the way that the soils were formed. But then we have a big variation, a big diversity of soils because the Andes has a very diverse and unique and complex geologic origin, because part of the Andes was under the ocean. So when you go to the Andes, you can find sedimentary rocks like fossils, and other part have a volcanic origin. So you go and you have granite. So in some areas in the Uco Valley, where the alluvial movement makes these sedimentary rocks with granite material. create a unique combination in our area that we have very stony soils. The stones, if you break, are full of granite mainly, but all the stones in some special areas I think are the best areas in the Uco Valley has a thick cover of calcare. And this is unique in the world, you have never this kind of combination. So when I explain the Uco Valley, I have to say, mountain wines with unique conditions. in the climate combination and in the soils combination. And the second word that is necessary to put on the table to understand the Uco Valley is diversity. Because we have a big variation of altitude in short distance. We have also this difference in the north or the south of the Uco Valley. And also the distance to the beginning of the mountain create variations in temperatures. And if you combine this with all the alluvial soils, that was a movement that was not very organized because it was a push, very disorganized from the Andes, this creates a big variation of soils also in the Uco Valley and in every vineyard in the Uco Valley. So mountain wines and diversity are the two words that I think are very important to understand the Uco Valley.
Mike - The Uco Valley is obviously a big place with thousands of hectares of vineyards. Some of them are responsible for wines at a more sort of everyday price, and some of them will be rated among the best vineyards in the world. What is the difference then between the two extremes in the Uco?
Sebastian - One is the altitude. When you want to go to the best areas in the Uco Valley, in my view, all of them are higher than 1,100 meters. So altitude, distance to the mountain, and then the kind of soils that we are going to find are very important. So we can divide the Uco Valley in villages. If you see a map of the Uco Valley, it's all divided in villages. Not all the villages have the same quality potential. You have some areas that have higher quality. And then the soil formation is very, very important, because what I described to you, for me, is something that is quite unique. That is the big granitic stones surrounding by a thick layer of calcare. only happen in the areas that you are closer to the big rivers that have the energy to push materials from very deep areas in the Uco Valley. So of course like every area in the world you have some places that you can make really high level wines and other areas that you can make good entry level wines.
Nelson - So in this context, what makes Finca Piedra Infinita special and why the Parcel Supercal is so important?
Sebastian - Piedra Infinita is located in Paraje Altamira. If we see a map of the Uco Valley, we are going to be in the south of the Uco Valley at the beginning of the alluvial fun of the Tunusian River. The Tunusian River is the biggest river that we can see in our area. So first is the distance to the mountain. The vineyard is close to the beginning of the mountain and in a south position. This makes that the temperatures in the night are very cold. It's one of the coldest areas in the Uco Valley. Then we have a big difference of temperature during the night and during the day. So we have a big amplitude, thermic amplitude. But a very important thing is that because the position with this Tunujan River, the soils are quite unique. We have big size of stones, but really big size. a lot of quantity of stones and the stones are really granite with a lot of quartz but with a huge quantity of calcare. This unique position of Altamira and the origin and the material that we find in a soil make that this is one of the most interesting places in the Uco Valley. When you go to Piedra Infinita, Piedra Infinita is in the heart of the alluvial So we are going to find one of the properties that has more stones. When you dig the soils, you can see the quantity of stones that you have. In order that you have an idea, the name Piedra Infinita is because in 38 hectares, we took out 1,000 trucks with stones in order to plant the vineyard. So the quantity of stones were infinite. And like I told you before, all the alluvial movement was. very disorganized and with a lot of energy. So this creates that when you go to the property today, you think that all the soils are the same. But when you understand the history and how the soils were formed through alluvial and alluvial movement with a lot of energy, and you start digging, you can see that the vineyard is not one vineyard. It's a bunch of parcelas inside of the vineyard. We started the work in 2009 that was divide our property by soils, and we divide. 38 hectares in 46 parcels. This changed our life, changed the way that we work the vineyards, changed the way that we make the wines. Then we had to build a new winery in the area, prepared for this diversity, because the winery that my family used to have was not prepared for 1000 kilos grape, 2000 kilos, 3000 kilos, because all the property is very divided by soils. And in particular inside of Piedra Infinita Supercal is 0.74 hectares. That is only stones. When you see where the vines are growing, the vines are planting on the stones. So all the root system is growing in the middle of these stones in a complex, in contact with this complex combination of granite and calcare. But this is an area that when I saw the soils, my first thinking was, will be impossible that the vines grow here. But then the vines grow there because the magic is in between all these stones.
Mike - How does that translate to the grapes? So during a normal harvest in Supercal, how would you find that the grapes look in terms of the bunch size or in what they're giving you in terms of the characteristics of the fruit?
Sebastian - When you see the vines, the vines of course are not very vigorous vines, because naturally the soil where they are growing is extreme. It's a challenge soil for the vines. So we plant 7,000 vines per hectare, because we know that our vines will be small. But also when we prune, we have to be very careful about how many buds we leave, because if we leave a lot of buds , the shoots are going to be short. So we have to reduce a lot the quantity of buds that we leave per vine in order to have a proper length of shoot in order that can ripe this bunches. The material that we have there is muscle selections, prephylloxeric malbec. So naturally malbec is not a very productive grape. So the bunches are small, but in this area are a little bit smaller. We have to take care with the ripeness because the ripeness there is fast. And one thing that we want to avoid in our style of wine is overripe. So this is one of the first parts of the vineyard that we harvest. And when you go to the wine, for me, the magic of this Parcella is the texture in the mouth. This calcare, this material for me, gives a lot of texture to the wine. Of course, you can... push this texture or you can reduce this texture. Our challenge is that you can feel the texture in the wine. So we try to reduce three things, overripeness, over extraction and over oak. Really, we don't work with oak because we want that all these texture that come from the soil, you can feel in the wine.
Nelson - I've personally never heard of a 100 point red wine made entirely in concrete tanks without any oak maturation. So we thought it was a good place to start to have a conversation about this. Like how did you come to this decision? How do you make a great wine using only concrete?
Sebastian - It was a process. But the process started with the idea to show the places in pureness. to show our places in the most transparent way that we can and stop thinking that we have to fix things in the wild. So the idea was we are not looking at perfect wine because perfection is not possible and not important. We are looking to make wine that talk about the place and the identity and the uniqueness of the place. At the beginning, we started in our research and development area working the same grade. a fermenting and aging in concrete or aging in new oak, in used oak and in a stainless steel. And step by step, we fell in love with concrete. We felt that our interpretation was better in concrete. At the beginning, I couldn't explain why. Today, after many years working 100% our top wines in concrete, I have explanation about why I think it's good. One of these explanations is that concrete don't give any taste and any flavor to the wines. And this is for us very important if we want to talk about the place. Second, we live in an area where we have a lot of sunlight, a lot of and a lot of light. And Malbec is not a very powerful, tiny grave. Has a good structure, but is not a Cabernet Sauvignon or a Cabernet Franc. It's a grape that has less tannic structure. So we feel that in the winery, we need to reduce the level of micro-oxygenation. We think that micro-oxygenation is good, but we think that when you work with the small barrels, it's too much. Why? Because our feeling is that we don't need to continue pushing the wines to open. We need to concentrate all the energy in the wine. The third thing is that the manage of temperature is much efficient. is more efficient in concrete. And the fourth, that with this philosophy, is a natural material. It's stone, sand, and water. And all our vats were made with sand, stone, and water from our property. So really the connection of the winery that we have in the area is very strong with the vineyard. But In the way that we were doing this process, we also realized that, you know, how was the old wineries in our area in the 90s? Sorry, not in the 90s, in 1910, in 1920, in 1913, we had a big immigration from Italy and from Spain, and Italy had a big influence in our area. So when you see the old wineries here, we're all concrete. Concrete and big fuodres. But big fuodres. A fuodre, a big foudre, works like concrete. It's old, so you have no any aroma to the wine. And also because the size, you have less contact with the exterior. So the quantity of micro-oxygenation that you have is less. You know when small barrels arrive to our area, 225 barrels, that is the famous image that you can have about the winery here and in all over the world? At the end of the 80s, when we had a big influence, from Bordeaux. So in my view, we lost identity. We started making a Malbec from a sunny, cold area with very stony and sandy places, like a Cabernet Sauvignon from a wet and cloudy area with very clayey soils. So I made because I feel that concrete is a great material in our area with our climate conditions and soils. But also realize that in the past was made like this, gave me a lot of confidence in the way that we have been doing.
Mike - I wanted to ask you a... I was going to ask you a technical question, but now I'm more tempted to ask you a philosophical question because I feel it takes a level of confidence to do a step like this and to say, actually, this is enough. It's like a chef who doesn't want to overcomplicate the recipe with too many different flavors. It's just, you have a great piece of meat. You know, you can keep it simple and, and allow the natural ingredients to shine through, but you must've had some difficult challenging times along the way. And, and like, how, where did this confidence come from and how were you able to overcome it to sort of really believe and to put that into practice? Cause it's, it's not easy. So where did, where did that come from?
Sebastian - You know, we are a family company and we live in Mendoza. We love the place where we live and we make wine because it's our life and it's our passion. So we never take the decisions looking the market. They have never. Always the decisions were looking the place, thinking in what we like, and then trying to explain what is our way to do the interpretation of the place. So I didn't have any limitation from my family or any limitation looking the market. Never was a conversation what the market will think about this. Always the conversation was, I feel that we are making more interesting or we feel more comfortable with this one. I think another good, this was my family didn't have the recognition that we have today. So I didn't have nothing to lose. I had completely freedom. But really it was a decision that was taking. in the vineyard and in the winery was not a decision that was taking looking the market. For me the market is a place where we deliver what we think that is the best. The challenge when you work in this way is that you have no margin. If the terroir is not good, you're not going to fix nothing. If you don't make a great viticulture in the winery, you're going to make. So the challenge is that you need a great terroir. You need more knowledge about your terroir. You need more precision in the way that you work in the vineyard and in the winery. And at the end, it has confidence that it's your interpretation. I'm not looking to do the best wine in the world. I'm looking to do a wine that talks about my place and our interpretation, our view about the place.
Nelson - You've been talking a lot about all the pros. about working with concrete, I wanted to ask about the cons. Do you have any problems or something that you actively are always checking while working with Malbec on concrete? I don't know, is there any problems of reduction or anything regarding the container that you're always like, okay, I need to check this constantly.
Sebastian - Concrete is a material that has pores because we work with concrete without any epoxy. So it's concrete, raw concrete, because if you put epoxy, you lose the micro-oxygenation. So cleaning is an issue. You need to be very, how do I say, very disciplined with the cleaning. It's not that you can move the wine and say, okay, I will clean in five hours. No, no, you have to move the wine and you need to clean. And then about reduction, I prefer that my wines has been closed during the winter. So we are not obsessive about reduction. Of course we taste and we are tasting all the time. And if we feel a wine that is closer and we think that need a rack, we rack. But when we start our wines, the idea is that we don't do things by protocol. Every decision like racking has been taken in the winery with a glass in front of us. But yes, you're working with the material that keeps the wines close. But in my view, because we have so much light in the field, we don't need to continue pushing that the wine open. We need to keep close during the aging.
Mike - Just going back to then these inert vessels, because the main inert vessel used in winemaking around the world is stainless steel. So how do you find concrete to be different for you compared to stainless steel in terms of the wine that it produces?
Sebastian - It's a cold material in terms of the feeling. Concrete, I feel that is a more natural material. But the two advantages that I feel between concrete and stainless steel is one that in concrete you have micro-oxygenation, less than oak, but you have in stainless steel, you don't have micro-oxygenation. And the other is the manage of temperature. We live in an area that the nights are very cold and the days are very warm. When you work with the stainless steel, the changes of temperatures are very fast. And many times the wines can be too cold during the winter. With concrete, I feel that the conditions are a little bit better. This is some things I can explain, others are skins. And many times for me, are decisions. I will like to make wines. like this and this is our way to do the interpretation of the place. But my feeling sometimes with stainless steel is that it's too sterilized.
Nelson - Malbec, like Cabernet Sauvignon, can be many things to many people and indeed there are many types of quality, you know, from extremely cheap Malbec to examples of high premium bottles like Supercal. And because you're currently shaping the history of this grape in the fine wine category, we wanted to know what does Malbec mean to you?
Sebastian - The origin of Argentina is the immigration from Spain and Italy, and they brought the tradition to drink wine and to make wine. And Argentina, if you ask me, for me, it's more old world than new world in terms of history and in terms of how we drink wine. And in Argentina, we didn't export any bottle of wine until the 90s. So all the wine that we produce in the area was drinking in the country. And through many... Generations of crows, Malbec was replanted, selected, replanted, improving, replanting. So today we have a grape that is prephylloxera, massal selection, and very well adapted to the area. If you bring a cut from France and you plant next to Malbec, the DNA is the same, but the grapes are completely different. So the Malbec that we have is really well adapted to the place. and was a selection that happened through many generations of growth that they were looking more the vineyard than the market. So in my view, Malbec is the best vehicle to express our places. Malbec for me is like Pinot Noir in Burgundy or Sangiovese in Tuscany or Nebbiolo in Barolo, Barbaresco or Piemonte or Syrah in the Northern Rhone. It's a grape that is part of the terroir. So I feel that our best wines are made with Malbec because Malbec has a very good adaptation to our condition, has been selecting for many years and is very transparent to our place. And another thing that for me is interesting is that when you taste Malbec from different areas in the Uco Valley, it's very transparent to the place. The shape that Malbec takes in San Pablo is different than the shape in Altamira and different than the shape in Gualtallari. And for me this is very important when we talk about grapes. that are adapted to areas.
Nelson - So how did you start studying this variety and how did you understand that you could make a wine like Supercal?
Sebastian - First, the grape can give you the level of quality in any place in the world, in any, in any. So Malbec, the grape is very good to express the place. And for sure, it depends where you cultivate Malbec is the level than Malbec that you can make. Then I, how we took our way to do the interpretation was step by step. I started in the winery in 2009, a research and development area that more than research is development and research because we are not a lab. But we started trying many things, different soils, division in our properties, harvesting times, how much whole bunch during the fermentation, how... I don't know how much extraction during the vinification, many, many aging in concrete or in oak and all these things. And step by step, we were talking our definition, but for me, it's been important what we talk during the conversation is, I'm not trying to do the best wine in the world. And I'm trying to make wines that has our philosophy and our vision about the place. So the decisions that we take in the vineyard and in the winery, are always crossing by our cosmovision or our taste. Maybe if you talk with another producer from Mendoza, the vision is different. But for me, it's very important character. For me, I'm a drinker before a winemaker. And every time that I open a bottle of wine, I'm looking for three things. First, pleasure, because we can say many things. But when I open a bottle of wine, I want to drink the bottle of wine. Second, that the wine tell me a history, and a history about the place where the grapes are coming from, but who makes the wine, and the year that the wine was made. And the third one that for me is very important because I like it a lot is that the wine has to have balance to be part of a meal experience. It's not only about wine. It's much more than wine. But for me, identity is important. It's very important that the wine tell me this history. from where, who and the year.
Mike - Well, that was an absolute tour de force with Sebastián Zuccardi. I thought a really fantastic blend of both passion and technical insight. So you got the enthusiasm, hopefully jumping at you down your headphones and well, the wine, you're gonna have to taste that yourself. It was the Finca Piedra Infinita Supercal 2017. And the three questions were about the parcel Supercal. explanation of the diversity of the Uco Valley. The second question was on never having seen a hundred point red wine made entirely in concrete, so we did a deep dive into concrete. And the third question was about the changing face of Malbec and what Sebastian Zuccardi thinks about the future of that grape. Thanks.
Sebastian - Thank you, thank you very much. My pleasure.
