One Bottle Three Questions - A Wine Podcast
Small growers to large co-ops from all over the world.
Viticulture, winemaking, sales and branding.
Real-life examples.
We drink one bottle. We ask three questions.
One Bottle Three Questions - A Wine Podcast
#9 - 2023 Chablis Le Finage, La Chablissienne with Olivier Masmondet
La Chablisienne is one of the most important wine cooperatives that exists today. They are responsible for a significant proportion of the overall production of Chablis but also for maintaining quality standards that set a benchmark for the region. Olivier Masmondet is the export director of La Chablisienne and as such, is one of the most important cogs in the business of wine. The role of the Co-Op in the modern world has faced increasing pressure to adapt and we explored how La Chablisienne works to meet today's demands. Aligned to this is their role in managing the supply and demand of a limited region with a global presence, Olivier gave us an insight into the pricing dynamics that is rarely a part of the public-facing story. We also discuss how they manage several different cuvees labelled as Chablis AOC and their purpose within the range, focusing on this episode's wine Chablis 'Le Finage'.
Nelson - Hello and welcome to One Bottle, Three Questions with myself Nelson Paré and Mike Best, Master of Wine. Today we're drinking the 2023 Chablis La Finage from La Chablisienne in company of the Director of Export Olivier Masmondet. And we start right away with question number one.
Nelson - In the co-op structure, the growers are owning the co-op. How are all the decisions made? Let's say you want to open a new market, you want to make a new base wine. Who takes all these decisions? And is there like a democratic system in which everybody votes for what happens marketing, branding or wine making decisions? How does that work?
Olivier - It's really the key for the Chablisienne to have a the board of the growers and the president that will manage, let's say, essentially what is about the vineyards, vineyard management, what is about the vineyard treatment, what is all about the harvest and the way it's done and everything. That's the job of the president and the board of growers. They are the ones who are totally involved in that. Of course, we're going to make recommendations, but their job is really that anything before the must arrive at La Chablisienne will be more the board of guards and the president's responsibility. When it comes to opening a new market or creating a new line of one, opening a new market is really something up to us, to the general director board. And it goes very quickly. We don't need the approbation of the president or whatsoever. It's something that we do right away. When it comes to branding, let's say a new label or an upgrade of the label, it has to go through the board of growers and the president because it's sensitive. But we're going to... make suggestions, we're going to make proposals and they just have to approve or not. So that goes very quickly because the key of a good co-op is all about the relationship between the president and the general director. We're lucky enough to have a general director that has been at Chablisienne for 15 years and the president that we have currently He's fairly new, he was elected four years ago, but his father used to be president of La Chablisienne as well. So they work together very, very closely and that's very important. But anything that is, let's say, sales, commercials, opening new market, new vision, anything that is related to what we can do with La Chablisienne, markets all over the world, it's us, and it goes very quickly. It's all transparent. No matter what we tell the board, we tell the president, we tell the growers twice a year we have what we call a general assembly, one in June and one in December, when we present them everything, the figures, the sales, what's going on, the markets, etc.
Nelson - When we're talking about the whole production,how much of it It's just grapes that arrive at your winery and how much is wine that is already been made?
Olievier - Zero wine. We don't buy wine, finished wine. We collect must.That's what we do. So meaning the grower is responsible for its own harvest. And then they're going to press themselves the grapes and they're going to store the must at their own facility. for about two or six hours because they're going to call us when it's ready, when it's been pressed and we're going to come with a truck and collect the must. When we arrive at the grow facility, we're going to check traceability because traceability is key when you are a Co-op and if you want to produce something interesting, it's really important because we control more than 4,000 single vineyard all over Chablis. First it's traceability. Secondly, it's the volume and the appellation to make sure there is no confusion. The truck leaves the grower's facility, arrives at La Chablisienne, and at La Chablisienne, we're going to redone the same tracking, traceability, volume, et cetera. And then we're going to taste the must right away. Physically, we're going to taste the must. And usually the people that taste the must at Chablisienne, it's the winemaker plus one vineyard management person plus one commercial salesperson. Really important. The three of us, we work by a shift of four hours during the day and we're going to taste the must right away. And we're going to rate the must. A, B, C, D. A is exceptional quality. It's above the requirements that we had prior to the harvest. B is what we expect from the growers in terms of quality. C rated musts are a small fault like an over ripeness, too much acidity or the inverse lack of acidity. It's something that you can correct during winemaking. It says C samples are not going to put in danger any of the rest of the must or the wines or whatsoever. They're not going to pollute anything. You can correct it. It's super easy. D rated must are eliminated. We take them, but we are going to sell the must right away. It's simply there is a fault that we consider. could be something very, very little, but we don't like it. If we don't like it, we don't take it. So to give you an idea in 2024, for the 2024 harvest, we have eliminated less than 0.5 % of the samples that we got. But it's very important to do that in order, first of all, in terms of quality, to rate you must is very important. And it's also important for the goers because you can measure them. You can correct them, you can inform them. If there is something that is not perfect, you can tell them right away. You call them right away and you say, hey, come over, we have a sample from you. There is something that we need to talk about right away with you. They come and we test together. And the idea is really to find what could be the problem, what is the problem, and to correct it right away. There is no delay. We are not going to wait two days or three days. We tell them right away. And usually when there is a problem, they come right away and it's corrected right away. 99.9 % of the problem doesn't exist after. But it's really important for the growers also because when they got an A, they're super happy. and it's published on the website, the internal website. So it's a way to, you know, to hold your shoulders in the street of Chabie to say, got an A from La Chablisienne. And you get more money also. B is the regular price. A, you get a little bit more. C, you're going to lose a bit, but not much. And D, of course, you're going to lose a lot. So it's a way to make sure that they aim for the A and B quality. and that will define their remuneration as well. So that's really important.
Nelson - Is there any, let's say, pressing recommendation from you guys? Because I imagine that if somebody has one vaseline and the other has like a pneumatic bucher, the wine will be completely different. So is there like anything that you would prefer rather than anything else?
Olivier - Pneumatic is really what we impose. we recommend heavily and we support them financially if they need one. And we tell them before harvest and based on the lab analysis we have made prior to harvest of their own grapes, their own estate grapes, we tell them what kind of press we will need. Longer press, faster press, et cetera. It's really... Again, it's not an obligation, it's a recommendation. Because if you want to keep good relationships with growers, you have to make recommendations, not obligations. It's very important for them. And yes, we are very vigilant and we pay a lot of attention to the pressing. Because when you get a new press to a grower, it takes a few days for the grower to get used to it. And sometimes if they don't know how to manage it very well, they can make small mistakes. So the pressing is key to us. As much as it is to when they've done pressing, where they're going to put the must in tank, how long they're going to keep it. So we encourage them to have stainless steel tank with controlled temperature system, of course, but not all of them have controlled temperature system. Let's be honest, you have the old families who are used to the system. I press, I call right away the Chablisienne and you must come to collect the must right away. So it's a, you adapt to the... to the growers' way of working. That's very important to keep that in mind. Even if we make recommendations to them, some of them are gonna be sure that they handle it perfectly. So we adapt. And they have to be exclusive to La Chablisienne. So it means that there is no partial must. that comes to La Chablisienne because we know that if they are not exclusive to us, they are not going to give us the best.
Mike - I'd like to ask about the dynamic between grape prices and volumes in Chablis. We already spoke a little bit about the bulk price and how prices determined your payment structure with growers. I think what might be more interesting to understand is how La Chablisienne as the largest co-op have an influence on pricing and especially in those vintages where volumes are low, if you could speak about this.
Olivier - Correct, yeah. As a Burgundian, as a guy from Beaune with a Medoc heritage because all my family is originally from Margaux, that's okay, my parents moved to Burgundy before I was born, so I was born and raised in Burgundy. But as a Burgundian from Cote d'Or, yeah, you look at Chablis as a strange thing in Burgundy because... It's a northern region, it's one hour and a half from Bonn, it's an island of white vineyard that is little bit isolated. Actually, Chablis is closer to Champagne and Loire Valley than it is from the rest of Burgundy. And Chablis has a history of being unstable in terms of pricing. It's based on the fact that in Chablis, the fact that we use stainless steel tank for producing Petit Chablis and Chablis, and I talk about Generally speaking in Chablis, not only for the Chablisienne, the fact that we produce one that need to be on the market very quickly, let's say we work on what I call a 12 months cycle. In Côte d'Or, they work on an 18 months cycle because the ones need to go to barrel, et cetera, et cetera. I'm not talking about Premier Cru or Grand Cru, I'm talking about village appellation and regional appellation. So in Chablis, people are very dependent on that cycle. They are vests and they need to put on the market very quickly the new vintage of Petit Chablis and Chablis six, eight months later. And they need the seller to be empty by the end of the year. So that put a lot of pressure on the growers economically because they want to sell the entire our must right away. And I'm talking about the majority of producers in Chablis, not everyone is like that. So it puts a lot of pressure on them because they need the money and they need the space. So the bulk market will be extremely reactive to that. If you have a large crop, then suddenly you will see a lot of wine going to the bulk market. And if you have more wine going... the bulk market, the price will automatically go down. And so that's why Chablis is unstable, or used to be very unstable in terms of pricing. say big crop, drop in price, smaller crop much more expensive. So it's not the case any longer and especially not with La Chablisienne because when we have a big crop we are not going to put a lot of wine on the market, in the bulk market. On the contrary, we leave that to the other guys that are looking to get their hands on the volume of Chablis. So people that are usually outsiders from Chablis, big negotians like Grandchet de France, Boisset, et cetera, et cetera, you name them, they buy through the bulk market. So we are not going to put on the bulk market Wines for competitors, wines for people like that that have a different vision. Our vision is quality and price for the quality. Their vision is different. So we are not going to do that. But this is basically how it works, how the mechanics works in Chablis. 2024 vintage, tiny crop, we lost 60 % of the volume in Chablis. You can be sure that right now on the market, price went up by 25 % right away, but there is no volume to deal with or to offer. So the scarcity of wine will make the price go up. And us, we are not interested in that because it doesn't help the growers, because it's too unstable. The ups and downs are not viable. idea for growers and not for La Chablisienne. Really the idea for us is to be stable in terms of pricing. It's to make sure that we are not going to be as expensive as Cote d'Or wines for sure. And they became expensive for so many reasons. I'm not criticizing that. It's just a fact. Chablisremain an extremely good value for white burgundies. So it's important to remain accessible, but it's also important to avoid ups and downs in terms of pricing because the consumer will be lost very quickly if price goes up one year and the year after it goes down. We need stability. We cannot improve quality without stability.
Nelson - We're drinking now La Finage, which is the biggest product, I would say, in numbers of La Chablisienne. But it's just one part of a portfolio of what we might consider base Chablis. How is that portfolio made and what makes La Finage a universal wine? Because it's probably the only one sold in every market.
Olivier - Correct. Just to summarize, La Chablisienne, cover pretty much all Appalachian in Chablis and around Chablis. Regional appellation, Bourgogne-Chardonnay, Bourgogne-Aligoté, Bourgogne. And then we make three different cuvées of Petit Chablis and about five different cuvées of Chablis. I use the name cuvée and not the name single vineyard. Single vineyard are reserved for premier que we produce. 17 different premier cruises, all of them, and we produce 6 Grand Cruises, including Château Grenouille. So, getting back to Petit Chablis and Chablis, we made the choice to produce cuvées because we believe that in Chablis you can play with the style of the wine. So, to give you an idea, in Chablis we produce 5 different cuvées. Le Finage will be a vision of what must be a Chablis accessible to everyone. Le Finage means that. The name Le Finage, it's an old Burgundian name that the Burgundians used to define as what are the best vineyards overall in Chablis. In Chabli, village appellation. It exists in Beaune, in Puligny-Montrachet. Each village used to have its own Finage. They were considered as the best vineyard or the most representative vineyard of what must be a good Chablis or a good Puligny Montrachet. So that's why we use the name Finage. So Finage is our vision of Chablis as global, global Chablis, accessible Chablis. And then the four other cuvées that we made are made based on the altitude. Two of them are based on the elevation of the vineyard. One is called Pierrelee. Pierrelle stands for petre, rock. So will be all the vineyard with a higher elevation and the style of wine that will be more minerally and very white flowers oriented. The next one will be Serein. Serein it's named after the river in Chaby that runs through Chaby. vineyards that are located usually at the bottom of the hills with a lower altitude. So in the soil you're going to get more loess, more let's say sediments in a way. So the wines naturally will be rounder, more serene, more mouth coating with a little bit of oak as well, 10 % of oak. So two different things. And then we have the organic Chablis. We control also about 70 hectares of 100 % organic Chablis. And the last one would be Venerable, Venerable, which stands for all vines. It's all vines above the age of 45 years old. But it's vineyards that are dedicated to the production of that Venerable, venerable cuvée. It's not a selection when it comes here at the wine. No, it's not that. It's vineyards that are dedicated. So we believe more in the style of wine rather than the single vineyard for village appellation. I'm talking about village appellation. We believe more in the style and some markets might be more interested in Serene or Pierlee or Venerable, et cetera. To give you an idea, Venerable is very successful with the LCBO in Toronto. We sell every year 10,000 cases of that wine. Then Sereine will be more successful. in markets like in Germany, while the US will be more interested with Pierreleé. It depends on the markets. And Finage, we produce a lot of it. It's stainless steel tank based, and it's gonna stay in stainless steel tank for about 10 months with a full malolactic, et cetera. So the idea is if one day for the first time in your life you're gonna have a bottle of Chablis. Maybe it has to be Finage because it will give you an idea of the quality of the one from Chablis and the quality of the one from La Chablisienne.
Nelson - How do you determine whether a particular couvert will perform better in one market compared to another, especially when you need to launch a product?
Olivier - We're to ask all importers and distributors around the world to carry Le Finage as a point of reference. First, also because le Finage is slightly cheaper than the other cuvées. Because Pierreleé, Serein and Venerable, we keep them longer for 14 to 16 months to 18 months, while Finage, it's 8 10 months. So there is a cost difference. We don't determine when we bring a new importer or etc. We make them taste. and we trust their expertise and we let them decide. We don't force them. We don't tell them you have to take all the five cuvées of Chabu. We tell them Finage is a must. And then you can make a choice between Pierlet and Serein. And Vénérable is the cherry on the cake. We know they all love Vénérable because it's very delicious. It's something unusual. But Pierreleé and Serein, it will be up to them to decide. And for some markets, like Japan, which is a great market for Burgundy, they carry all the five cuvées because they believe that one retailer or one restaurant is more interested in Serein. They're detail-oriented. So yeah, we don't force them. We don't determine. I can have my own vision of it, but I let the importer choose. To tell us.
So to round up today's episode, we were very pleased to be joined by Olivier Massemonde, Export Director of La Chablisienne. The three questions that we covered were, what is the role of the co-op in the modern world? Second question was exploring the dynamics between great prices and volumes in Chablis. And the question number three was understanding the different wines that La Chablisienne make and their purpose, focusing on this episode's bottle of La Finage. Olivier, thank you very much.
Olivier - Thank you very much, Mike. Thank you very much, Nelson. It's been a pleasure. Thank you very much for the time and the awesome questions you had.
