One Bottle Three Questions - A Wine Podcast
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We drink one bottle. We ask three questions.
One Bottle Three Questions - A Wine Podcast
#10 - 2023 Whispering Angel, Chateau d'Esclans with Paul Chevalier
Paul Chevalier has overseen and driven the rise of Whispering Angel to its position as the first name in the Rosé wine scene. We discussed the strategy of how the brand built its position and their strategy for today. The role of marketing is perhaps poorly understood in wine but in this podcast we cover the key points that are important for Whispering Angel. Finally we discussed the role of the different wines in the portfolio and how the Rosé category is evolving for the future.
Nelson - Hello and welcome to One Bottle Three Questions with me Nelson Pari and Mike Best, Master of Wine.Today we are drinking Whispering Angel fromChateau des Clans 2023 and we're here with Paul Chevalier,Vice President and Global Marketing Director of Château d'Esclans.Paul, thank you very much for being with us.
Paul - Bonjour and I'm happy to be here.
Nelson - How did you guys establish and maintain the role of market leaders of Rosé wines? We wanted to know more about how a brand comes to life, how you guys worked around it and how do you see the competition around you and what do you do compared to other people?
Paul - Well, I would say that the vision begins with a gentleman, his name is Sacha Lichine from Bordeaux. I've known Sacha for a long time. He grew up in a wine family. His father owned a chateau in Margaux called Prieur Lichine. And Sasha wanted to do something a little bit different than Bordeaux. So he sold his father's property and in 2006, as the story goes, invested in Chateau d'Esclan. But the vision was to create, I guess, a new generation of rosé and perhaps even more the greatest rosés in the world. And I think he had an inkling, as I would say, that rosé could be something more than just cheap and cheerful, which was really the case in Provence for a long time. Rosé is not new in Provence. been produced over 2,000 years. But the idea of quality rosé is quite new with a few exceptions. So, Sacha moved to Provence. He hired a gentleman, his name is, unfortunately, who passed away. His name is Patrick Leon. famous flying winemaker and oenologist made a Chateau Mouton Rothschild for over 20 years, participated in the beginning of Opus One project back in 1978, and Almaviva in Chile. And they put their heads together and said, what can we use for techniques and how can we make these new styles of rosé? That was the first step. And then the second step was once you actually make the wine is how do you go to market? and I think this is more to answer your question, is Sasha really being perhaps a little worldly understood it was about being in the right places. So we started with a base which was non-existent or very, very small. And it was really about going to the best destinations in the world and trying to get our product or sell our product in the right accounts. Mostly, to be honest, restaurants, hotels and resorts and so forth. And I relocated, I was in America, based in the US and Miami. And we started working the US market. And Sasha's mind, he said if you can build a brand in America, eventually, if it becomes popular in the States, it will become popular in the rest of the world. And that's pretty much what's happened. So flash forward, almost 20 years later, it went from just a few countries to over a hundred countries. So Whispering Angel today is the number one Rosé. in the world from Provence, starting from zero. So that's the base of where it began. And then we sort of spread it out. I guess we sprouted out and grew from there. But the foundation was, it's all about being in the right places. And then how do you connect with those consumers?
Mike - I would like to sort of follow up on that. And this is sort of has a lot of parallels with other luxury products, luxury marketing. What are the other industries that you look at or the way that other other kind of luxury goods are marketed or promoted that you learned from this and was there anything sort of definite in that or is it more a sort of you you see an idea you take it or was there anything sort of really definitive that you almost took as a sounding board?
Paul - So I'll give you two examples. I'll start with the wine business because that's kind of what we do. In Sacha mind it was about essentially being similar to a champagne brand and Reasoning is why why number one is is if you think about it? Rose champagne really only started to become popular in maybe the 1990s ish in that those sort of years and before nobody really drank rose champagne and actually rose champagne was was actually Sold for a little bit more than the regular champagne I guess because it was pink or there's something special about it and he said well Why couldn't we do this with a still wine? He also like the idea of a champagne portfolio, because we make actually several different rosés, six different rosés, now seven. And the idea was, if you connect with the consumer, you can sort of float, I don't know, float is the right word, but you can go up and you can go down the scale. So Whispering Angel being maybe at the entry level, going all the way up to Garrus is sort of similar to starting with a non-vintage champagne, maybe... Moet Brut Imperial, for example, and then you go up to Dom Perignon and you come back down to, and you float within the portfolio. That would be for a good wine example. From a luxury example, Sascha always talks about, you know, maybe a watch brand like Rolex. And this is very important to him. says, how do you become or how do you remain timeless? Nothing to do with the time on the watch, but. you know, a generation, two generations, and three generations, as perhaps your grandfather gives the grandson or granddaughter their first watch when they turn 21 or 20 years old, and it happens to be a Rolex. How do you remain relevant as a luxury brand to those generations? And it was about, again, connecting with the grandfather, the father, and the children within the family. I probably shouldn't say children because they're not old enough to drink alcohol, but you get the idea, the younger ones. And if you can connect with different generations, welcome them into your community, let's call it inclusive, then you become a little bit more of a time, especially in the wine business, which is very tricky because I can guarantee our friends in Bordeaux today, I'm not sure if they're connecting with a younger generation.
Nelson - Is it relevant what is happening in the world of Rosewines for you guys or you're just like literally going for your own road? Are you just having like a highway that you dominate or is there anything that has been influencing you from what is happening in the region or for example what people have been doing since you guys started this movement, let's say?
Paul - Yeah, so the good news is that we started in 2006 coming up on 20 years. So really, other than, not to name names, but I'm a big fan of Domain Ott. There's a few brands that were out there before at the sort of a higher, let's call it ultra, super premium, ultra premium, essentially above say $20 or so at that price point. But really it was a very, very, very small part of the business until it's today. What Whispering Angel has done is really created a category of luxury rosé. And we're kind of writing the book as we go along because there wasn't anybody else to follow. So that's sort of the good news and bad news is we have to kind of figure it out. Now, when we first began, I'm gonna think maybe, especially in America, maybe in 2006, there was, I'm gonna guess eight rands, maybe less than eight brands, 10 brands maximum. And then it sort of blew up and it went from 10 brands today to over 400 in the last 20 years. So the category certainly has become busier, which we actually think is a good thing, especially, we talk a lot about Provence, Provence being the birthplace, because we really focus on that we are in Provence.So like what champagne is to the sparkling wine, that's kind of, think is Provence is to the rosé category. And another sort of analogy would be if you like antiques and you go to a street, you're thinking maybe it's in London or New York or wherever may be, and you have one or two antique shops on the street, okay, but when you have a street that has 10 or 20 antique shops, you really want to go to that street because you know you're going to get some good antiques. So we actually think competition is good. as long as the quality is there. And we're seeing that today. The overall quality of rosé, especially in Provence, has really grown, maybe thanks to some of the things we do from a winemaking perspective, but every year the quality of rosés are getting better and better. So as that happens, it's just more more people get attracted to the category and so forth. So we think it's healthy competition. and continues to grow together.
Mike - I love that.I think that any wine producers out there listening to this, any generic bodies, please take note of that because you are definitely stronger together. know, there's a lot of competition in the world for buying wines. And if you shout as a region or a style or whatever together, and like you say, if you overall have good quality, then it sort of raises all boats. I totally agree with that. Just to go back to this kind of idea which I find difficult to pin down, it really really intrigues me is you are a brand which is luxury, it's over the average price of a bottle of wine, it's aspirational, but it appeals to a very broad audience and yet if you try and please everybody, you won't please anybody. How do you balance this by being able to be desirable across a broad spectrum of consumers? but also to remain focused, how do you sort of deal with that conundrum in your approach?
Paul - It goes back to, again, our ethos of our way of going to market. So the way of going to market is actually selling into accounts. So if you have a relationship with these great accounts around the world, whether restaurants and hotels and so forth, then the sommelier, the owner, the waiter, the bartender, whoever it may be, becomes your ambassador. That ambassador connects to a certain community. If you choose at the price point that you're at, again, being a little bit more expensive, but I would say we're still at, you know, let's say if it's $20 euros or pounds, it's still pretty accessible, maybe not to everybody. So if you can do that, then, and you're in the right places, then you start to create a tribe You create sort of a following. And then they continue to spread the word, spread the message.And even more interesting is probably the, why did we grow so quickly is in addition to restaurants and so forth, especially in the, even during COVID, during COVID, think it was we did better than ever is, is then you can drink the product at home. So more and more people are entertaining at home and they're looking for something which is not just accessible. but not so complicated. And maybe I shouldn't say this, but I don't think you need to be a master sommelier or a master of wine to understand Whispering Angel. I mean, it's just the color is light, it has no sugar, it's very easy to drink. it checks all the boxes and so forth. by doing that, you took a little bit out of the complication of what wine can be, know, Bordeaux's and... Burgundy can be complicated and lot of wines can be a little bit complicated. Not everybody grows up in the vineyards of Bordeaux and Napa Valley. and if you do that and you connect with the community, then it starts to grow and you're sort of knocking down barriers, cultural barriers and so forth, where people say. I like you because it's just, number one, I understand you, you taste good. It has to be quality for sure. And you connect with people. And then, they do the work afterwards for you. I'm not that religious, but it's almost like they become your apostles and they start spreading the word for you and they tell the story. And trust me, I don't know how many times I've done tastings and storytelling. I've told the story thousands and thousands of times with a glass of wine speaking in public, traveling all around America and now around the world. And that's how we did it. was, and it wasn't really with major marketing and advertising campaigns It was, we call liquid to lips and maybe some good old fashioned shoe leather of walking the streets. I wouldn't say we're running for office or politics, but it was a little bit of that. Just, yeah, talking to people and being approachable in a world that is not always approachable in the world of luxury. I guess.
Mike - Paul, you've spoken about how it was quite a maybe analog process, a very sort of human process, the growth of the brand and a lot of seeing accounts face to face. But nevertheless, I assume that PR and marketing and advertising has formed a big part of what you've done. What do you feel has been impactful with regards to sponsorship and PR and marketing? And how do you measure what works? I think it's an often misunderstood element in wine. We are not as advanced as maybe some spirits brands or some beer brands in that, partly because a lot of wineries at certain levels can struggle to invest in that. But given your parallels with maybe more champagne led kind of approach, that is part of the brand and the story. So how is that, those elements of PR and marketing led you to where you are now.
Paul - So for us, it's really about the idea of marketing doesn't create sales, it supports sales. What does that mean? It supports the sales team. So there's no use in doing marketing if you don't have distribution. So getting back to getting into the accounts, you go and you meet the accounts and once you get it, so once you get in the accounts, once your wine is on the wine list or it's on the shelf in the wine shop or, I mean, the supermarkets come much later, but the, you know, the wine shops and the caviste and so forth is how do you create velocity and movement? Right? And for us, didn't, again, we weren't, we didn't have the luxury of being a champagne brand nor a spirit brand. So we didn't have the big funding and the big budget. So we said, let's create a series of mini events where we take Rosé and we start to connect with the community. So I did most of this in America. And to be honest, before COVID, I'm going to say back in, I don't know, 2015, 16, in those years, I was doing 400 events a year in the United States. So what would these events be? It could be as simple. I remember I was invited to, I was in Miami in the winter, and there was this event, this lady I know on a yacht. think it was Valentine's Day, and Nicolas Cage had a yacht and she said, oh, Paul, I like your wine. Why don't you come on the yacht and you can sample the wine. So I go on the yacht with a couple cases of Whispering Angel chilled in some cups or something. And I start sampling everybody on the yacht. And then all of a sudden, oh, where can I buy it? And I said, oh, okay, I better get into this, you know, find some sources. So as I said, the distribution, you have to have it. then we started doing other, I don't want to say more lifestyle, but rosé. as a wine is probably a little bit more versatile. So we started doing more outdoor events associating with, I don't know, sailing, polo, golf and tennis and music and I don't know, anything I could get myself into because I figured if I could set up a little area to taste and I figured get people to taste it and have people to help me is would you like to try it again? Would you like to try a glass of Whispering Angel? We do a lot of this in the UK now, which has become our second biggest market in the world. All of a sudden, Whispering Angel shows up at Ascot, Goodwood, various sort of very prestigious events and festivals. And then, oh, would you like to try? Oh, I usually drink champagne. Well, maybe there's no champagne today. Would you like to try a glass of rose? Well, I like that. Actually,I like that better. Okay, can I have a second glass? So it's really taking the effort of going to these places, sampling. Really, our biggest budget was the cost of the samples, the bottles that you would use and the time and effort to be standing there and pouring wine for the people. They weren't even customers because most of the times it was for free. It was sampling. liquid to lips. But if you don't tell the story at the same time, it gets lost. So my example of a rosé barometer, oh, why don't you take this home with you? Why don't you have a rosé barometer? And if you explain and you're, I don't know, courteous, friendly, engaging, oh, would you like to, someday if you ever come to France, come visit us at the Chateau. You know how many, I think this summer we had 10,000 people. come through the chateau to visit us this summer. A lot of people go to Saint-Tropez in the summer, and of course, so it's not necessarily that expensive. I'm not saying it's cheap, but it's really a lot of personal and it's a lot of passion. If you have the passion and people see the passion come across, it goes a long way.
Mike - I wasn't sure exactly what you were going to say, but I was in some ways expecting something that was kind of more expensive and maybe even complicated. But there isn't anything you said which someone listening to this, they were working in wine, couldn't do. It reminds me of that quote, it takes 20 years to become an overnight success, you 400 tastings a year. That's what it takes to become number one market leader. Yeah, it's impressive.
Paul - It's hard work and not giving up because I can guarantee 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, and we had a little bit of an economic crash, remember 2008. So the first six years, the numbers were not good and the business was sort of struggling and every year was just getting by, getting by. And then finally things took off in sort of 2013, 14 and 14 was the big year when it just blew up.
Nelson - Regarding sponsors, do you have a sponsor that you liked more than anything else or did you work specifically to get specific sponsors or it just happened organically?
Paul - I would say it's a very good question. I'm going to say maybe not 100%, but 95 % was organic. So to give you an example, I'm not going to name names, but being at these places and I don't know anything about music, I ended up at Coachella. associated with Republic Records, because I couldn't afford to do it. And I was sampling and all of a sudden you bump into, who was there? Gigi Hadid, Kendall Jenner, those, they were really young. I probably shouldn't have given them wine back then. And all of a sudden they start drinking your product and they start posting on their, with the Kardashians, they start posting on their Instagrams. And then, I don't know, somebody had met David Beckham and David Beckham posts. He loves whispering angel whispering angel with the guys hashtag brose, and that blew up and our sales blew up in Manchester and those sort of. So we met a lot of people over the years and just, yeah, mean, Lady Gaga and Madonna and Adele. Adele posted during COVID that she drinks more, I don't know, more whispering angel than I figured what she said, something. So I think it had a lot about... Do remember there was a campaign from the Mandarin Hotel, I think, and it was about all celebrities and movie stars and things like that. And they said, like the, I forget what it was, I like the Mandarin. It was just like a thing. We're kind of like that, but we didn't pay anybody to do it. So it is organic. Maybe a few big bottles sent to somebody's house or something. I'll give you one more example not to be too long-winded but in the early early days Sasha had said Paul we need to go to Mustique in the winter in the Caribbean. I said Mustique? Where's Mustique? You the famous island where you have a lot of private houses. Yes, yes, yes, because you have lots of famous people and have houses there and he says what are we gonna do on Mustique? well you're gonna go meet Ali the baker. Okay. because Sasha lived in Barbados when he was young. And he said, go meet Ali, he's a French gentleman. He has a bakery. He delivers bread and croissants to everybody's house. And there must be, I don't know, 50, 60 private homes on Mustique. And I said, okay, so what are we gonna do before Christmas, about this time of year? Well, you're gonna take some magnums, because we had some leftover magnums from Whispering Angel, and you're gonna go with Ali, and you're gonna put it on everybody's doorstep, like the milkman, and a little note for Christmas. So we go around, we go to everybody's house. And I didn't meet anybody, but six months later, everybody in Mustique was drinking Whispering Angel. Where can I get this stuff? at the big party, we had the, I think it was the 50th anniversary party, had Mick Jagger who signed a big bottle of Whispering Angel for an auction or something. So those kinds of things go a long way. And again, you just have to go to Mustique. We have to get there. That costs money. And you have to go. spent a couple days with Ali the baker delivering wine. was the one delivering it in the back of the back of my car delivering samples. So there you go.
Mike - That's incredible. That is crazy. mean, that is crazy. That is also amazing. And in some ways, it's kind of a bit affirming. know, as me and Nelson, obviously working deeply in wine and lots of people who listen to this will do or will be interested to to sort of see what actually goes on. But just to have someone who's had this, you your level of success as a brand and to realize that actually the concepts are not that, it's simple, not easy. I think maybe that's a way of summing it up, but that's, yeah, I was not expecting that. That's amazing.
Paul - And persistence. Don't give up. I think there's some sort of statistics saying that, you know, most companies or startups and things fail because they give up, you know, after, I forget, five years, four or five years, or six, eight, but if you would have waited until that sixth or seventh year, that's when things start to happen.
Nelson - Chateau d’Esclan has a pretty important portfolio. With products where, in a way, they feel completely different from each other. So how does Whispering Angel fit inside this portfolio and how the portfolio works in harmony?
Paul - As I said earlier, in Sasha's mind, he wanted to create the greatest rosés in the world. And the vision was going in the direction, with Patrick Leon, now it's his son Bertrand, towards these wines like Garuss. which is from what we call the estate collection. So essentially it was, how do you respecting Provence, which is pale and dry, how do you put more, I don't wanna say inject, because it's not the word, but how do you create a product that has more going on? And essentially the, I don't wanna say it's a secret, but the recipe was using the grapes we have, which is, know,Grenache and Rolle, which is vermentino, and then, older vine and then experimenting with barrel fermentation. Because to be honest, as most rosé in Provence, 99 % is made in stainless steel tanks, which is fine, much lighter in style. What we're trying to do is make something a little bit more full bodied. So, give you an example. If we were a champagne house, we would probably stylistically be more like Bollinger Krug or Alfred Gracia. What does that mean? It barrel fermented. In French, we call it vina. little bit more richer and fuller. I'm not criticizing lighter styles of rosé, but we're trying to do something more. The problem or the challenge was, and we're talking about, you know, styles like Garrus or even Les Clans, is the market wasn't ready for this. Back in 2006, we were looking at us like, you come from another planet or something. even a whispering angel was a challenge. So we had to get whispering angel going. And we got whispering angel going, as I said, now it's number one. And people accepted that Rosé number one could be more serious and they would accept to pay the price of, you know, hypothetically, you know, $20 or 20 euros, et cetera. But that was 20 years ago. So after you create a benchmark, you create a certain level, then you can take the same consumers, especially as they become, maybe they mature. I don't know if they mature, they get older anyway. And they... have more, I don't know, more money, more experience, et cetera, et And now you can upsell them to something more. But if we had started back in 2006, we couldn't have because it wouldn't have worked. So now we think that the time is perfect for these types of ultra, ultra premium rosés, which are quite expensive. Now they're not 20, they're 50 and sometimes 60 and not even maybe 100 for Garrus. is there's a market. Essentially we created, but we're continuing to create, a market for these styles of rosé. And to be honest, it'll probably be after us. It'll be the next generation. What we're doing now is we're planting the seed. The younger ones will take over for Zasha and myself and Nala and the rest of the team and continue on. So it'll be fantastic. I'm knockinh a wood. Hopefully I'll be around. is to see this 20 years from now. I'll give you another example. Think about Robert Mondavi. Robert Mondavi, and obviously he's long gone too, but think about, do think people really knew what Napa Valley was back in, I don't know, 1970? No, but he, all of his life, he welcomed people to his house with his wife, he cooked for them, he preached about, try my Napa cab, try the, it, try it, and not just him, there was other people that were doing it, but You know, and then a couple generations later now it's extremely established. Like I said, like Opus One, I forget the first vintage Opus, think it's maybe 79. It took a heck of a long time. So we'll get there. And I guarantee these styles will continue on. And there'll be other, as I said earlier, and hopefully, and I'm sure there will be, and it's a good thing. Other producers making great styles, maybe some of them are not oaky, some of them are different, using technology, whatever. And then there'll be a legitimate offering. So when you open the wine list someday, instead of seeing like two rosés on the last page, you're going to open it and you're going to see a whole page of entry-level rosés and prestige rosés and maybe even older vintages. Because we know, the Garrus, for example, can age for three, four, five, six years. So all of a sudden you're to see rosés on your wine list that are, you know, three, four, five years old. That doesn't exist. So we're pioneers, kind of trailblazing around the world with these ideas of what Rosé could be. that's ultimately, I think Sasha's goal was to do that. We're not quite there, let's say we're halfway there. I don't want to sing the song from Bon Jovi, but we're not living on prayer, but we're almost there.
Mike - So this was One Bottle, Three Questions with myself, my best, Nelson Pari, and our guest was Paul Chevalier, Vice President of Château d'Escalin, and the wine that was, of course, Whispering Angel. The three questions were how to establish and maintain the role of market leader in the world of rosé wine, how PR and marketing campaigns work for Whispering Angel, and how Whispering Angel fits in the bigger portfolio of Château d'Escalin. So Paul, once again, thank you.
Paul - Merci and à bientôt, as we say.
